So I'm really excited today to be speaking to Paul Kirkley. Paul is currently Client Services Director for the fabulous agency MadeBrave. And he has such a huge amount of experience in agency life, that I think this interview is going to be fantastically rich and full of insight and tips. So, Paul, I'm going to pass over to you really, if you could spend a couple of minutes just talking about your background, your experience in agency life, that'd be fantastic. 

 

Thanks, Jenny. Hi, there. Well, I've had about 25 years plus in the in advertising industry. And I was, I was really, really lucky because I knew from an early young age, what I wanted to do, so I never really wanted to do anything other than working in advertising in some form or other. And I was lucky enough to start at Ogilvy as a grad. And I spent about 8-9 years at Ogilvy working on numerous clients, but being really, really well trained, because the the Ogilvy at the time was a really big sort of training agency. And you had experience within all the different environments of the different departments. So you're lucky enough to get all that sort of training, I was lucky enough to get all that training from an early start. And after I'd worked at Ogilvy for a while before I joined a startup it had actually already started up, but it was quite small. It was about 30 people. And that was really, really interesting, because it was a move from the big agency into a small agency, and you sort of had to move from working between departments to being really all one department. And so you again, you learned a ton more stuff of how to really get stuff done in a in an agency. And I then spent the bulk of my career at JWT, after five years, I left that agency, the startup and joined JWT and that was fantastic. I've always been in account management, I've always loved the sort of creativity involved in the whole industry. And once I was at JWT, I was head of account management, I was head of new business for a number of years. And I worked across all the different clients that JWT had. So local domestic clients, regional clients, global clients, and for the last sort of five or six years there I was a global business director. It was fantastic experience with you know, hugely talented people that that, frankly, selfishly I never stopped learning from.

 

And you're very modest actually your account management team, correct me if I'm wrong, was 120 people. Is that right? So that is some feat to look after so many,

 

I think it was the biggest account management team in London, possibly in the country. So yeah, it was a lot of people. But again, you know, they were they were brilliant, hugely talented, all really, really interested in brands and really interested in sort of how to get the best work for their clients. So it was a joy.

 

So if you're one of these lucky people that knew what they wanted to do at an early stage in their career, and then presumably just pursued your path, Ogilvy fantastic training ground? What do you think that training gave to you that perhaps other account managers in different agencies don't get?

 

Well, I think it gives you a massive understanding of what motivates different people in different parts of an agency. So if you apply yourself in each of the different departments properly and sort of thoroughly throw yourself into it, and think about it through their, the different people in those departments eyes, you get a very different perspective of what actually motivates a strategist, or what motivates a creative person, or even what motivates an account person. And I think being understanding of that and respectful of that is something that you can only you can only learn if you've been exposed to it in a in that sort of way. And it really it changed how I sort of operate in an agency because you suddenly realise that all the different departments are so valuable that you , the more you can understand about what makes their lives easier and better. And frankly, what they're ultimately sort of inspired by means you can set everything up as the account person to make their lives more favourable, easier, better, but for their work.  

 

What did you learn if you can remember this while back about how to work with clients? I mean, that was a really useful exercise and i think i'm sure other agency, maybe leaders are thinking, yeah, maybe we need to invest some time in the team so that they can sit in the places of different people within the agency. What did you learn at that stage about the client and working well with the client?  

 

 

I think one of the things you learn is getting it's the benefit of being in a big agency is you have a myriad of quite often quite big clients. So you're operating with, again, hugely talented marketeers who really understand the broader picture of, of what your what you can obviously offer and what they are actually after. And I think the benefits of it is, is that you just are exposed to so many different types of people, that you get just tonnes more experience. And you can perhaps in in unfortunately, in a smaller agency, it's a different kind of experience. But you're you're witnessing and being exposed to so many different problems, that the different clients have that after a certain amount of time, you feel you just have an innate confidence that builds because you're, you faced so many different problems, at least once before. And they're quite often the skills that you learn from one client or one particular brand is transferable to a completely different category, or completely different client. And I think that's, that's probably the biggest thing that you, you learn from that sort of mix of different types of clients.

 

And I suppose it gives you exposure to the business perspective. Because if a client has one particular challenge, and you deal with so many challenges from different clients, then you start to get a picture of the types of business problems that you are fixing for the for the clients, right?

 

Absolutely, yeah, there's, there's so many different problems that arise, but very quickly, you start connecting the dots. And if you if you're lucky enough to work across a variety of different clients, and even not at the same time, you just have to be able to remember those situations you faced, you faced and hopefully help them through. And then you kind of bank it. And then you can use that bank of information, bank of experience, we like to apply to anyone else who comes in the future. So quite often, you know, you after a number of years of that kind of experience, you start to almost work out that individual business problems are not that individual. There are actually things that you can learn from other clients, other brands, other campaigns, other situations that you know, people have been in.

 

I suppose it also arms you with the types of questions that you want to be starting to ask the clients at the briefing stage, the more that you are exposed to their different business challenges and communication challenges and problems, right.

 

Yeah, I think one of the things you have to be wary of if you have been through a lot of those experiences is not presuppose or prejudge those situations. So it's a very good point, I think, often the best briefings come out of the best questioning. So the ability to be someone that's open to listening, you know, everyone always talks about agencies that they never really listen. And I was, again, taught read that early age that you know, you have to really be a good listener when you're especially when you're an account person, because it's that's listening between the lines of what someone is saying and those kinds of meetings, is where you really unearth the truth, the truths if you like, and so I think it's that ability to not prejudge, or presuppose you know, the answer or jump too quickly to the answer. Is it again, a very sort of, it's an important learning to have

 

I 100%. agree with you, Paul. Funnily enough, it's one of the key aspects of my training programme is how to ask questions. And we actually have a framework that can be adapted for different scenarios. And I just had an instance with a client of mine who, who had started to ask questions differently to her client. And a client actually said to her, wow I started, I was going to brief you on one project, but now we are talking about three different projects, because she'd been so good at asking questions. So I think it's kind of underrated, isn't it? Somehow, questions and listening

 

It's completely underrated. And, you know, I think I think what what most people need, not just the not just clients, but I think it's what most people, whenever you meet people for the first time, or even when you're not being curious and inquisitive and asking and being interested, is often the thing that most endears people to other people. So you know, if you can do that in your work life as well, you, you often open up and numerous other doors to other situations, because they're going to be interested in if you're interested. And if you're genuinely interested, you know, even even better.

 

Absolutely agree. Fantastic. Okay, so that we've talked a little bit about, you know, the early years and I want this podcasts to be fuel for thought or food for thought, for people listening, who perhaps aspire to be a client services director. So you really have reached, you know, level, you know, managing 120 people in that CSD role, then going beyond to be, you know, global business director, etc. But tell me, what do you think makes a superb Client Services Director?  

 

Well I think the role of account management firstly is is to, is to create the right environment for the best world class works be developed on behalf of your clients and your agency. So creating the right environment is the biggest sort of role for anyone in account management. And ultimately, what that means is, it's about becoming, in my opinion, a trusted advisor. So be someone that your clients view as someone they can trust, and someone whose advice they can trust, it's, it's the opposite of being a sort of transactional order taker. So it's very easy in account management to, you know, just take orders and go back and deliver what's been asked for by the client. But that means you're only ever reliant on the last project. Whereas if you can build this kind of trusted adviser status with your clients, and not, it's not a sort of something you hide behind, it's something you have to actually do, you have to be someone that that is giving advice that they can trust. So in a way, what that means is internally, you need to be able to lead and direct and encourage teams to do everything possible to create that environment. And externally with clients, it means it involves inspiring those clients to entrust you to develop that world class work. So  it's a tricky area to get into. But if you're genuinely interested in your clients problems, and your clients business, and you genuinely can offer them some advice that's trustworthy, then you're more than 50% of the way there because that that is, in my humble opinion, what what makes the great account people and the great Client Services directors.

 

Brilliant answer, and I love that view. If someone's listening to this, they might be thinking, Well, what could I possibly offer them advice on? If you know, they know their business better than I do? Like, talk me through maybe some examples of how you can provide advice to the client?  

 

 

I think it's about the first thing is it's really about trying to make them and their brands successful. So there's no agency that successful when their clients aren't successful. So the first thing to think about is what could we do to make our clients and their brands more successful. And that could be just having a point of view on the current situation with their brands, it could be looking at what their competitors are doing. It could be just sharing some information about successful ideas that you've seen or work that you've seen. It's also I think about, about being, you know, massively ahead of the client curve as much as you can. So being aware of what's coming down the track for them. So again, being very close to their business. And, and thinking about what is the next thing that's coming down the track or the next three things that are coming down the track? And how could if I was in their shoes, how would I prepare for that? How would I What would I ask an agency to do? What would I want them to come and come to and to do? And then specifically in the agency, I think it's it's really about inspiring a team or the team to constantly outperform, to constantly think about what is not okay, don't settle for what's okay. Because anyone can just deliver, you know, what's what's been asked for? It's always about pushing for what is the next world class result or next world class answer.

 

I love that. Always thinking ahead, always looking at future trends, things that are coming down the line that are going to be relevant, because we forget sometimes don't we, the client goes deep in their business, but they don't go wide. Like we go wide with different industries. And interestingly, I did another interview with another account manager from a different industry, funnily enough, and he was saying how much he brings. He looks for trends happening in other industries, completely different industries that you can borrow, and adapt. So that's fantastic advice for anyone that's aspiring to be really good at account management. So leading this team, a CSD. How do you spend your time and what do you think are the skills you need to really be good at the role of leading the account management team?

 

 

I think that i think some of the things that you can do. I'm sorry, could you repeat a question, Jenny?  

 

I've got this terrible habit of asking about three questions in one question. So it's nothing to do with you for the, I'm really looking for the skills that someone needs to be a good CSD, because I'm sure there'll be people listening to this, maybe you are an account managers level, account director level, but really want to go higher and advance their career, what are the skills they should be maybe looking to acquire, in order to be very effective in the role?

 

I think you have to be quite organised. And I think you need to be able to simplify things. So I think it's very hard when you're dealing with clients who have often got, you know, lots and lots of plates spinning off and don't have a lot of time, they also may be paying the agency quite well. And they don't, they don't really want to spend more time than they need to, you know, talking to the agency about their problems, they want the agency to go and solve them. So I think the ability to think, very, very quickly and single mindedly about how to get to a solution is a really important part of the role, then I think sort of just being fascinated by what your clients businesses is, I can't reiterate how important I think that is, I think it's the most interesting part of the job. I mean, I was always taught to learn everything you can about your clients business, so that if they were unable to go back to work for a  bit, you could step in and take their role. Now, that's, you know, obviously hugely arrogant, but it was a sort of nice, humble horizon two aim for it was like, you know, try and try to think of yourself, what are the things that your clients are worried about, that you could help them with, so that so much so that even if they weren't able to be in work that day, you could step in and probably, you know, help them that day when they weren't there? I think also banking as much as you can of what works. So find out what works. in marketing, find out the work that works, finding out the work that you admire, and your clients admire. And ask yourself as honestly, as you can, why do you think that work works? Why? Why is it really working? What is it? Why is it engaging with people? Why is it changing people's behaviour? Why is it changing people's perspectives? What is it about that idea, or that approach that changes how people view their lives? And the more you can sort of learn about those, the more you can have an interesting sort of bank of information like that bank of ideas, if you like, the more you can apply those across your different clients. And again, you know, having that when you when you see people that are fantastically rich with insight, it's, it's usually because they've got that knowledge, they've just banked as much knowledge as they possibly can. And they've got a very honest view of it. And they've been probably honest with themselves about how, how successful that thinking is, and why it's worked that they have been able to apply it to other other areas.

 

That's such good advice, actually. Keeping abreast of what's happening in the marketplace, what what work is out there, what does your client like, you know, what works? Why did it work? How did it change behaviours? Great tips there. And in terms of your role as CSD, and your previous role as CSDhow much what was your role in client meetings? For example, you know, you have a team, they're going to be the sort of delivering the work, but how do you input? Where do you input? Where do you think you bring the most value?

 

Yeah, good question. I think I think one of the temptations is to is to sort of suffocate people in those sorts of meetings. And, and the best, I think the best CSDs do the opposite of that. So they're much more empowering. So they they will help and mentor and coach people going into the meetings, and even during the meetings will not chair the meeting, but they'll try to sort of ensure that the meeting flows well,  the agendas adhere to any additional thinking that might not have been covered by the team could be brought in by the CSP, just to sort of embellish that thinking. But I think it's more about you know, setting the team up for success and  allowing them to gain from your experience because the, the you know, ultimately you want that team to succeed. So the role of the CSD is not to take over the meeting or shine or run the meeting. Quite the opposite. It's more for them to my opinion, so then to empower and inspire the other team, the rest of the team to success.

 

I'm glad you said that, because I've had a lot of account managers say to me that they sit in the client meeting. And unfortunately, they're, you know, more senior peer takes over. And therefore, they end up not saying anything. And the client has the impression that you're there, you know, you shouldn't even be in the meeting, let alone have an opinion or a view. So I agree with you. It's good to orchestrate. So that you are, like you said, shining the light on the team? And how much juice does the CSD role get involved in agency operations, new business, other factors? Other than kind of, except developing and growing existing clients?

 

Yeah, well, it's it varies. I think it varies in different agencies. And my experiences is quite a lot in those two areas. So I think if you're running a reasonably big department, and then the agencies quite rightly expecting you to have a point of view on how the agency is operating, and how the work is coming through the agency, how it's coming into the agency, you know, is it all those things that would fit with operations? And then I think on new business, I think, again, you know,  why wouldn't you put someone who's got lots of experience of different clients, and, you know, working on your business, into that into that sort of world as well. So, in all my experience on running as a CSD, I've had a lot of, you know, exposure to operations, a lot of exposure to new business. And I think, you know, quite rightly, because I think if you've had that sort of been lucky, like, I have to have that exposure to all that work, and all those different situations, it's, it's very, very helpful to have someone in the room who's, you know, just been in a similar position and face those sorts of challenges.

 

Brilliant. And could you maybe show us the other side? What do you think some of the challenges are in being a CSD?

 

Well, I think I think the, one of the biggest challenges is probably when something goes wrong. So you end up being quite rightly, you end up being the person that is accountable for something going wrong within the agency. And again, quite understandably, if something goes wrong, ultimately, is it's good to have someone that is accountable for it, and the buck stops with them. But I think that you know that anything that when it does go that wrong, I think the way to view them is that the way to view those situations is there's opportunities to fix them. So, again, I I learned from someone quite an early stage where they said there's there's never a problem there's always an opportunity. And, and in fact, they used to say if they weren't, if there weren't any problems, we wouldn't have jobs, which is a really nice way to think about it really sort of inspire me to think about how, how you how your role with clients is actually really perceived. And in fact, if something goes horribly wrong, as long as you fix it quickly, and fix it well, I've actually found it to be a very, very helpful thing. And people actually remember the agency that fixed the problem for them. They, they respect the agency that and the and the team of people that acknowledged it was a mistake, were honest about it, they didn't hide it, they they were completely open about it and transparent about it. And then, you know, authentically changed it, changed how they were, you know, and resolve the problem. And that's always for me has always been seen as a big positive by clients.  

 

How would you describe your leadership style, Paul, because I know, you know, you, you have a very calm, experienced kind of approach, you know, that that's very reassuring for people that you are in charge of? How important do you think that is? For the team, you're, you know, I'd love you to spend a couple of minutes just talking about your leadership style and what works.

 

Yeah, I think I'm quite that's a very good question. I, I think I'm quite a sort of, as you say, I'm quite calm person, I doesn't really faze me. So I don't get fazed by big problems at work or stress at work. In fact, I thrive on it and I like it. And I think that, again, it sort of comes with having been in lots of situations, not the same situations before but similar situations or face similar problems, whereas you can normally see a way through it to an art to and to an answer that's going to be a successful answer. And I think my style is to try and help people to see the same answer that I can see without telling them that that's the answer because they in that way they learn as they go along. So it's a much more of a mentoring style and coaching style. And in some respects, it's, you know, it's I think it's quite a strong leadership style, because you're constantly encouraging people to go the extra mile to do the extra step to just think beyond what's being asked. And of course, when they work it out eventually for themselves that that is the answer. They'll never forget it. And so they then repeat it. So I think that that sort of style has always worked for me, and I've never been a sort of cheerleader leadership style, it just isn't me. I'm much more, I think, considered and more sort of calm than that. And I think that, probably, because that's how I reacted to my previous bosses. I prefer that kind of a, of a boss and that lead, and I respond to that, and it, you know, inspires me. And so I've basically adapted that style. And, you know, it's been very helpful to me.

 

I hope there are agency leaders out there listening to this, because I agree with you, 100%, I think it's so much more, we've used the word empowering, but you make your team so much more independent, don't you? If you're you're training them to think in that way. And the only way they're going to do that, rather than you being the hero, that you become the guide. So I think it's a fantastic management style. And what what changes? I'm interested because you've been in the industry for so long, what changes have you seen throughout your time in terms of how agencies are operating?

 

Yeah, I think I think there's been quite a split now. So quite polarisation is possibly a little bit to do with COVID. Actually, but I think for the last sort of 10 years, there's been a split between short termism and more sort of, you know, kind of sales very sales focused, and what I was saying earlier about being a trusted advisor, and I think that's that is starting to polarise the business a little bit. And it's, I think, partly driven by, you know, that the pressure on agencies to become more profitable, if you like, in a, you know, what's a, you know, a tougher world now has forced some of the agencies into that kind of world of short term sales, rather than, you know, being a more long term partner and having a, you know, more sort of longer term view with your clients. And I think the other big changes, I mean, everyone will say this is is the understanding is the, the requirement for the whole agency, but particularly account management to understand digital, the digital revolution. So I think that, you know, in the past, I think some agencies were able to get by with not everyone embracing that. But I think that it's utterly impossible now, if you're not, you need to be interested in it, you need to be curious about it, you need to understand it, you need to genuinely embrace it. And you see the people that haven't, and then they're not, you know, they're not really working in the industry anymore, because they just haven't chosen, they haven't chosen to embrace it.

 

Well, what would you say? If anyone's listening thinking, oh, gosh, that's me, I'm not moving fast enough with the times do you feel that there's any sources of, you know, any people that you follow, or any sources of information you, you listen to or read, to keep you ahead of what's happening, what's changing so quickly.

 

So I'm lucky enough to have children of the age that they are sort of innately intuitively digital, so source is to talk to them, they're, they're so knowledgeable. But it's mainly other people. So I've found in the agencies without words, that that's the best source for people to, to you know, to take to to learn from, I mean, just by hanging around with those people, you just by osmosis gained so much knowledge and you know, once you connect with them, they're sharing as much as as much as you need to know they're sharing everything you mean, you don't need to be so, you know, did so involved in it. But you do need to know enough to be able to advise clients and be and frankly be trusted by clients on it. So I yeah, I mean, I do follow a lot of people on social in this sort of area, but it's there's none of that, you know, there's no one particular person I draw out but I think just having a hunger for it and being interested in it and and enjoying it is is probably the best advice.

 

I agree because I don't work in an agency full time I still am plugged into the agency strategists and they share a lot of their learnings and thoughts. And, and I've learned so much. I mean, I think a lot of the agency strategists look to different industries for what's changing and evolving, like gaming and sports and music in different industries, and they get their influence from there. And yeah, I think that's that's a good point. And what, what, if any challenges do you think have particularly been presented to agencies around working remotely?

 

Well, I think I think the biggest challenge is the, it is harder to build and maintain relationships. So you know, and also, I think the ability to see, body language on these calls is very, very difficult. If you're working with a client, you know it and it's not just for the agency to see whether the client likes what you're talking about, or what you're sharing, or whatever, it's the other way around as well is that everyone misses I think that kind of body language. And if you're not connecting regularly, and you're only connecting virtually through video calls, then I think that's disproportionately affecting some of the situations because of COVID. I think the ways to sort of overcome it. I don't think there's a rocket science thing for this, I think, I think you need to have, you know, regular calls with your clients. But not just when you need a call. So I think it's worth sort of establishing them. But most people are open to having a conversation or a quick coffee or beer in the evening, or whatever it is just it's just a nice way to make it as normal as you can, to normalise it as it was prior to COVID. I think regular sharing of anything you find of interest, any articles, you see any links you see, I think, you know, there's it's not again, rocket science, but I think that is something that people enjoy. I think they respect it, they like the fact that you're thinking about their business and, you know, to earlier points, that's what you should be doing all the time, you should be constantly thinking about how can I make my clients life easier? How can I make them more successful. And then I think, you know, just the small thing is, I think when you're on video calls, I think it's quite easy to miss what the action points are as a result, or what the summary of that particular video call is, because they're a slightly different experience for both parties. And I think it's, you know, a lot of a lot of agencies, I think, have sort of lost the, you know, the, the contact report, or the call report of those meetings, has sort of fallen a bit by the wayside. And I still think those are very important documents, because they're not political documents, they're just summaries of meetings, which help, you know, as people go from one call to the next to the next to the next, they just help everyone to work out what they need to do as a result of that call. And I think it just is a, again, it's another thing that you can follow up with to keep the contact going.

 

Yeah, keeping everything on board. Absolutely keeping everything on track and keeping it moving forward. And, Paul, you've got an awful lot of experience with global brands working on global accounts. What do you think if there is an agency listening, thinking, I want to be working more with global level accounts, rather than local? Do you have any kind of, can you explain to us, what are the key differences in terms of how the agency operates?

 

Well, I think you can only really work properly with global accounts, if you have a global outlook. So I think you have to be someone that is, you know, is  interested in what's going on in the world. So most of the global clients that I've ever worked with are, some of them are really, really genuinely global citizens, you know, they've lived all over the world, they you almost don't know what nationality they are, because they're so global. And they are very interested in what's happening in the world, all over the world. And in fact, they can look at any part of the world and see their company or their brands challenges in that particular environment. So I think the ability to think beyond just the domestic world that you're in, as an agency person, and look for inspiration around the world, in different markets, different countries, different brands, different companies in those countries and markets is it's a bit like just being very curious about your clients business, butexploded across the world. And I think I think it's, you know, it's just really about immersing yourself in that and genuinely looking and but you have to be genuinely interested in that. You have to want to do that. You can't just go, I wish we could be more global, you have to go, I'm interested in the challenges that this particular brand is facing in this country. I wonder how we could help them in this country, and connecting the two and growing and growing from there it is, it is a different sort of mindset. That doesn't come from just having an office in another country, you have to have people on the team who have that global perspective and interest. And, it's, frankly, a sort of cultural interest in what what different different differences and similarities there are, across the world.

 

There's a theme coming out of this isn't there, I mean, for in terms of behaviours and skills that you need to get far in an account management career is really continuing to have that interest, that thirst for knowledge, that curiosity, as you say, to really put yourself in the client's shoes, and to really immerse yourself in their world so that you can become more valuable. So thank you for continuing with that theme. Can you give us any examples of where you as a client services director has really added value to either your agency or the client or both?  

 

Well, I think you know, resolving conflicts within the agency, I think, is an important part of the role. So inevitably, when you've got lots and lots of bright people with very strong opinions, who think they're right, and both parties might well be right. But in the end, you often need a sort of mediation person who can bring, you know, the team back together again, accept the fact in fact, even applaud the fact that there might be a know, difference of opinion. But you know, often great creative ideas come out of, you know, very strong differences of opinion. And you kind of need to encourage that, yet treat it on a very professional basis, rather than a personal basis. So I think the Client Services Director, in those situations, you know, a big part of the role is to be able to galvanise the team, bring everyone back into the pointing in the same direction, accept the fact that nothing is personal. It's not a personal point of view, it's just a business decision or business disagreement. And, you know, and get everyone back back together and pointed in the same in the right direction, and almost agree to disagree in those situations.

 

Something just occurred to me while you were talking there, because you also experienced and if you are leading a team, and someone's listening to this as a CSD already, and they want to maybe get more inroads within their client companies to have C suite level conversations, do you have any kind of tips that you could share from your experience of doing so?

 

Yeah, again, I think, as you said, you know, a lot of them all roads tend to lead to sort of being as interested as you can, in your clients business. And the more interested you are, the more likely they are to share the issues that they're facing. They will ask, they'll, you know, open up to more situations where they think you might be able to help. And ultimately, the more the further up the sort of ladder, you can get to being a trusted adviser, you almost get to the point where you can ask, you know, I'd love to be moving up into a sort of, you know, C suite, or I'd love to meet so and so who's got this issue that you've talked about? Could you introduce me to them, and the closer that bond with yourself and the clients, the more likely they are to say, you know, what, I think, you know, A should meet B, because they've got an interesting perspective on something that we didn't realise they had a perspective on. So the more the more you can, you know, listen, and ask questions about your clients business, I mean, informed questions, you obviously are trying to get, you know, a proper perspective, a professional perspective. But the more you asked that, the more likely, in my experience, you are to sort of be introduced to a wider audience within, of clients within an organisation.

 

It comes down to having that valuable point of view, doesn't it? And if you're bringing external perspective, external trends, things that are happening that the client needs to be aware of, then they may spend some time with you. But if you're not kind of part of that conversation, and I call it the begging bowl approach, you know, like, can I have five minutes with no, if you want five minutes with me, you have to bring something of value, because they're busy people. And how do you think agencies just in the future are gonna continue to evolve? And how can we prepare for that?

 

I think, I think agencies will continue to be under sort of financial pressure And I think that they will increasingly move into as many deliverables, the many areas have different sort of skill sets within the agencies. And I think that's probably potentially quite dangerous area for agencies to go into, because I feel that a lot of the sort of deliverable natures of what agencies are doing now is, is being offshored, it's being sort of pushed down the cost of it or being pushed down. Whereas the, for me the more upstream strategic thinking, for an agency is where the future for agencies lies. So I think the ability to come up with will help clients come up with powerful strategies for success, but also to be able to help them deliver what needs to be done in order to achieve that is a is a nice to have. But I think that the upstream thinking is where agencies will increasingly successful agencies will increasingly be more successful.

 

Yeah, that's, that's good advice. I mean, I follow I don't know if you've heard of Tim Williams from ignition Consulting Group. He always talks about pricing models. And, as does Blair Ends, but you know, how we price I think, probably needs a revamp, and I know, many agencies are doing that successfully moving to more value based pricing, etc. But I think I think you're probably right. I mean, we are, you know, a lot of the work that we do is commoditized, unless you're bringing something different unless you're adding the value that we've been discussing. So that's, that's good perspective. Do you have any tips or advice for anyone who is aspiring to be a CSD in their career? Any, any words of wisdom?

 

Well, I think, you know, I will, again, reiterate that I'd be as curious as you possibly can about your clients. And I'd be as helpful as I can, as you can to all your team members around you. So the more you've got people within the agency saying, you know, he or she is a fantastic asset to our team, they really, really bring the team together, they identify the vision that we should be heading after. They're very, very, you know, truthful, they act with integrity, they never talk behind people's backs, they they eradicate the politics that inevitably exists in some of these places. And the ending, if the same is being said by clients, then I think you know, you, you're well on your way. And then I think just you know, it's important just to enjoy it. No one likes people who look like they're in, in pain, doing their job, they really want to be surrounded by people that are enjoying it. And the more the more you surround yourself with people that are enjoying it, the better  the job is, you know, I mean, it's a pivotal role in an agency. And I think if you're in the world of account management, I can't understand I could never understand why someone wouldn't want to be even more pivotal as the CSD and enjoy it. Because it's, it's a, you know, no day is the same. It's  a fantastically exciting role, where you just have a different challenge every day all day.

 

it really comes across that you enjoy your job pool, which is a joy to see. And I absolutely love your insight into sort of modelling the behaviour that you want to see in your team. Because if you're all stressed out, no time, a little bit aggressive, you know, you start blaming others, that just sets the tone for the whole agency, doesn't it? Yeah, and I believe I mean, I've worked like yourself since the early 90s in agencies, and I think leadership really starts at the top. So the behaviours that you have are going to filter through the agency. So enjoying your work, you know, embracing challenge, embracing change, and setting the tone, I think is that's a fabulous tip to finish on actually. Do you have anything else? Anything that I have haven't asked you that I probably should have done?

 

I don't think so. That was a thorough set of questions. We've covered everything.  

 

Well, saying thank you so much, Paul. And it's yeah, it's been a pleasure to chat to you. Thank you so much for spending the time with me today.

 

Thank you, Jenny. Thanks a lot.